Talk:Tira, Israel

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Petersen, 2002, mix-up

I have generally found Petersen, Andrew (2001), A Gazetteer of Buildings in Muslim Palestine: Volume I (British Academy Monographs in Archaeology) to be very reliable. But on this town he has slipped, and provided a lot of references which are for Al-Tira (Ramla). I will list all the refs given, and try to find out if it checks out or not. Cheers, Huldra (talk) 23:20, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

• References exactly as given in Petersen, 2002, p. 307 (in bold):
• Baedeker 1876, 136, 335 Palestine and Syria: Handbook for Travellers (1876) (not online?) Palestine and Syria: Handbook for Travellers (1894)

  Snippets at google, definitely Tira@Ramla both pages. Zero^talk 09:01, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

• Cohen 1973, 296

  Says "nahiya of Ramle". Zero^talk 09:43, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

• Cuinet 1896, 475 -->(Petersen, p. 307: "other sources of this period attest to the fertility of the area (Cuinet 1896, 475)." )  ?????????
• Orni in EJ, XV, 1149
• Guérin, Samarie II, p. 355 ---> wrong, this is for Al-Tira (Ramla)
• Hartmann 1910, passim -->Die Straße von Damaskus nach Kairo Zeitschrift der Deutschen Morgenländischen Gesellschaft › Bd. 64 (1910) ??????
• HG, 153 ---> wrong, this is for Al-Tira (Ramla)
• Meinecke 1992, II, 185 = Meinecke, M. (1992): Die mamlukishe Architecktur in Agypten und Syrien, 2 vols., Gluckstadt.
• MPF, 5-6 No.12 =MPF: Ipsirli and al-Tamimi (1982): The Muslim Pious Foundations and Real Estates in Palestine. Gazza, Al-Quds al-Sharif, Nablus and Ajlun Districts according to 16th-Century Ottoman Tahrir Registers, Organisation of Islamic Conference, Istanbul 1402/1982
• Palmer, 1881, 246 ---> wrong, this is for Al-Tira (Ramla): clearly states that it is for the Tira in the map XIV. Found correct: p.194
• Sauvaget 1941, 66 n.265 = J. Sauvaget. 1941. La poste aux chevaux dans l'empire des Mamelouks.
• SWP, II, 298, 378 (map XIV) ---> wrong, this is for Al-Tira (Ramla) For anyone with an access to the SWP-maps, this is a dead give-away. *This* Tira is further north, on map XI: SWP, II, 166
• al-Umari ed. Shams al-Din, 248
• al-Zahri ed. Ravaisse, 199 ---> Zoubdat kachf el-Mamalik..in Arabic;

I wish we had grid references in article. It would make it much easier to track which villages are which. Any, I verified that Petersen's Tira (1) gives the grid reference of Tira, Haifa and his Tira (2) gives the grid reference of Tira, Israel. He doesn't have Tira (Ramla) or Tira (Baysan). Maybe we should write to him about this error. Zero^talk 10:05, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, I thought so too, but I would like order the stuff here a bit first. Eg. it looks as if he hasn´t had the al-'Ulaymi -ed available; typically, while al-'Ulaymi write a lot about Jaljulia, that is not reffed, (apparently he did not find the village under the name of "Djaouliyeh") while completely irrelevant stuff like under Al-Qabu and Qalansawe (=under a disscussion of head-gears; qalansawes!) ..is referenced. Huldra (talk) 20:09, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

Crime

The reasons for the high crime rate articulated in the source, verbatim, as "Part of the problem in policing towns like Tira, according to police, is insufficient cooperation from local residents, who are often cowed by a culture of suspicion towards police and a pervasive fear that makes them highly reluctant to come forward and report crimes." I have paraphrased this as "part of the problem lies with the local population who have a culture of suspicion towards police, resulting in underreporting of crime and lack of cooperation." This is accurate, and there is no basis for removing that from the article. Inf-in MD (talk) 11:09, 30 August 2021 (UTC)

Imagine that. You cited an article whose main theme is the lack of police protection and you cite it as the fault of the population. That's disgraceful. You also put in honor killings without any source that mentions honor killings in Tira. What it says, not in relation to Tira, is "Arab leaders say Israeli police largely ignore the violence in their communities, everything from family feuds and mafia turf wars to domestic violence and so-called honor killings." You didn't think it was necessary to mention the Arab position. That's even more disgraceful. Zero^talk 12:33, 30 August 2021 (UTC)

Imagine that! I cited an article whose topic and headline is crime in Tira- 'Tira man guns down restaurant owner, is then shot dead by pursuing cop', which give background info on the causes of high crime in Arab society, including Honor killing, and I include that in the article. Inf-in MD (talk) 13:13, 30 August 2021 (UTC)

You distorted the source. In your next attack on the article you took a single event from 18 years ago and turned it into a general problem in the present tense. More disgraceful editing. Zero^talk 14:28, 30 August 2021 (UTC)

I did not distort the source, I quoted it nearly verbatim. That this is problem in Arab society in general is attested to in multiple sources. Inf-in MD (talk) 14:33, 30 August 2021 (UTC)

This is not an article about Arab society in general, and your opinion about Arab society is not admissible. Zero^talk 14:50, 30 August 2021 (UTC)

An article about murder in Tira mentioned that this was problem in Arab society, in general. That's not my opinion - I quoted that. You objected in the spurious grounds that it didn't say it was a problem specifically in Tira, so I added an article that described a specific incident in Tira. Inf-in MD (talk) 14:59, 30 August 2021 (UTC)

POV

Ugh, this article has become an WP:ATTACK, about a city, no less! Most (if not all) of the stuff under "Crime"-heading belongs in the Crime in Israel (which is at present woefully inadequate).

Crime in Palestinian Arab cities/towns in Israel is a huge (increasing) problem, that I think we can all agree on. That should have its own section in Crime in Israel.

Here is what Al-Monitor writes about it (citing Reda Jaber) December 31, 2020: "What is happening now [] is the direct consequence of the state’s attitude toward the Arab citizens as a distinct group and their marginalization in the country. Official government policy has validated the sector’s second-class status in all matters pertaining to education, welfare, employment and, first and foremost, personal safety. The absence of adequate law enforcement authorities and policies to address poverty and at-risk youth has resulted in favorable conditions for a criminal element to assert itself gradually over the rest of the Arab population." (Israeli Arabs desperate as crime, violence break new records)

The BBC also have a series of articles about this subject.

Also, some of the stuff under "Crime doesn't belong anywhere on en.wp, IMO. (The beating of a porn-couple, serously???) And "Tira was the site of 31 homicides, the fifth highest per capita rate of all Arab towns in Israel"....how was it compared with non-Arab towns? I read (5-6 years ago?) that the most crime-ridden city in Israel was......Tel Aviv(!) (Funnily enough, there is no "Crime" section in the Tel Aviv-article), (Not to mention all the mobster activities in Netanya; Bombed cars(!) and shooting in there is not reflected at all in the wp-article, funny that! ([1]) ...while beating a porn-couple is noted in this article? Seriously... Huldra (talk) 21:09, 30 August 2021 (UTC)

Actually; I would argue that we should remove the whole "Crime"-section. AFAIK, this is the only article about a city/town in Israel that has such a section(!). And this, while car-bombs and drive-by shootings in Jewish Israeli cities isn't mentiones on wp. Cherry-picking much? Huldra (talk) 21:35, 30 August 2021 (UTC)

I disagree. "Crime" sections are quite common on articles about cities, especially those with well known crime problems - see for example Chicago#Crime, Washington,_D.C.#Crime, Memphis,_Tennessee#Crime or Detroit#Crime. Tira has a well known crime problem, covered in multiple sources, and we shouldn't sweep that under the rug. Inf-in MD (talk) 21:55, 30 August 2021 (UTC)

So do yeshivas like Yeshiva University, and several others I can think of in Jerusalem or Australia. I'd look very warily on any editor who trolled such articles to slap in material and say, 'like many other yeshivas, in Israel and the diaspora' to make an analogy with what you write re 'Arabs' in Israel.Nishidani (talk) 22:02, 30 August 2021 (UTC)

Feel free to add such sections to other article which need them. You might want to remember that it was you who created this "Crime" section for this article (though admittedly what you created was a caricature). Inf-in MD (talk)

Well, according to this Arutz 7 article; Secret Crime Stats: Tel Aviv 'Most Dangerous' Town (yeah, a bit old: from 2014), citing the Hebrew Calcalist; "Based on statistics, the paper said, Tel Aviv was Israel's most dangerous city, with 77 crimes occurring for every 1,000 residents." So why do we not have a "crime" -section in that article? This looks like cherry-picking to me, (Again; why are you not expanding Crime in Israel?) And please show me any other town in Israel, which has a "Crime"-section? Huldra (talk) 22:23, 30 August 2021 (UTC)

Like I wrote, feel free to add such sections to other article which need them. And, since you missed it, it was your buddy Nishidani who created this "Crime" section for this article. Inf-in MD (talk) 22:48, 30 August 2021 (UTC)

"your buddy Nishidani"; User:Inf-in MD: please stop personalising every disagreement/conflict, thank you, Huldra (talk) 22:55, 30 August 2021 (UTC)

Sorry, let me rephrase: It was not me who created this section, perhaps you need to take it up with Nishidani. And to your other point, while they may not have sections labeled "crime, several other city entries in Israel (Ramla, Lod) have paragraphs that detail the crime situation there. Where crime is a notable problem, we note it. Inf-in MD (talk) 23:04, 30 August 2021 (UTC)

But Tel Aviv, which according to the above source (ok, from 2014) has the worst crime statistics in Israel, only has a sentence "Compared with Westernised cities, crime in Tel Aviv is relatively low." So not really noted there, is it? Do you see why I call this WP:Cherry-picking? Huldra (talk) 23:11, 30 August 2021 (UTC)

So first of all, you are misrepresenting the source, which says "crime overall was down in Tel Aviv by 3%", not exactly the stuff anyone would get excited about. But again, if you want to add crime statistics to Tel Aviv's entry, go right ahead. Inf-in MD (talk) 23:20, 30 August 2021 (UTC)

Firstly; I did not misrepresent the source, and I do not appriciate such false allegations about me. I searched for "crime" in the Tel Aviv article (it appears 1 time in the article), and quoted the whole sentence that the word appeared in. (If the editor who added the stuff misrepresented it: I have really no idea). Secondly; yeah; I expected that (the "go right ahead"), my question is: do you see why I have a problem with your editing? (As I somehow suspect that quite a few editors would have a problem with me, if I started an article about every rebbe who has been accused/convicted of sexual offences. Or every drive-by shooting/car-explosion done by Israeli mobsters (like in the above mentioned Netanya). etc, etc) Huldra (talk) 23:43, 30 August 2021 (UTC)

No, I don't see why you have a problem with my editing. I came to this article after reading a BBC article about the crime wave in Arab Israeli towns, with Tira as an example. The section titles "Crime" was not created by me, but by someone you seem to have a long lasting and quite amicable relationship with. I just expanded it and turned it from the caricature created by Nishidani into something useful, that explores the crime situation in Tira from multiple point of view. What you misrepresented is the Israel News article, not theTel Aviv Wikipedia article, by quoting just the sensationalist headline and ignoring what the body of that report said - that crime rates in Tel Aviv are declining. But like I said, crime sections for cities are common, and if you think the one for Tel Aviv is lacking , you should expand it. I won't have a problem with it. Inf-in MD (talk) 00:07, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

Heh, that's a new one: I am "misrepresenting" a newssource.... by quoting its headline. Ah well. And you really did't need to repeat 3 times that N. added the "Crime"-headline: I got it the first. And I must commend you on your knowledge about other editors here (not bad, after only 6 weeks, and for an editor with just 200+ edits after reaching the 30/500); you are obviously a hundred times faster learner than what I was, back as a newbie. Anyway, enough of this; removing WP:UNDUE next, Huldra (talk) 20:48, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

It's not new at all - read the above section where another of your fellow travelers is accursing me of doing this, because I only quoted a part of an article but not another. It doesn't take a genius or a fast learner to see that you and N are editing from the same point of view, and exchange dozens of friendly messages on your respective talk pages. Inf-in MD (talk) 21:55, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

By "fellow traveler" you mean who? And recall not personalising your comments? If you refer to Zero; then you are wrong again: you did not quote the LA's headline "Arab citizens in Israel bemoan lack of policing"; you cherry-picked from the article, quoting only the police view.

And the section now is a horrendous mess; just what is the difference between "organized crime" and "organised gangs"? And why, oh why, is the beating up of a porn couple important enough to be included i wikipedia? Huldra (talk) 22:13, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

Hmm; (Note to self): make a list, of all the times you have made a false statements. Huldra (talk) 22:13, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

let me see if I get this straight: according to you, quoting a headline but not part of the article which says something different is ok, but quoting part of an article, but not another part is not ok? Are you seriously making that ridiculous argument? Organized crime is this - Organized crime. Gangs are this - Gang#Street_gang - Tira suffers from both. The porn couple incident is an example of "honor violence", which Zero claimed does not happen in Tira, but was apparently notable enough for the LA Times, 12,000 km away, to report on. If you prefer to go to my original formulation, which just said that "honor" violence is a problem, I'd be ok with that , too, w/o mentioning specifics.Inf-in MD (talk) 22:48, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

I cited the headline of a newssource; you said I "misrepresenting the source". (And it is not correct that the article said "something different" from the headline: where in the article does it say that Tel Aviv is not (still) the most dangerous city? Even with 3% down in crime rate?

As for you: you took an article with the headline "Arab citizens in Israel bemoan lack of policing"; then cherry-picked from the article, quoting only the police view.

Honor violence redir to Honor killing; not exactly the same as beating up two porn-actors, is it? Huldra (talk) 23:05, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

What is the distinction you are drawing? That the couple weren't killed, just hospitalized under police guard? As the article I cited makes clear, that wasn't for lack of trying, and the Tira population was disappointed that they were not killed. Or are you disputing that they were attacked because of of some perceived damage they did to the town's or Islam's "honor"? Inf-in MD (talk) 23:55, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

POV (2)

This article's lead states as fact, in Wikipedia's voice, an unsupported claim from an OpEd by a non-notable activist. This is not lead-worthy material. Inf-in MD (talk) 22:46, 30 August 2021 (UTC)

Inf-in MD, I have removed that. For such claims we need academic sources Shrike (talk) 16:16, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

Thanks. Inf-in MD (talk) 16:17, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

Nimer Sultany is not a "non-notable activist". He is a reader (equivalent to US Full Professor) at SOAS University of London with a Doctor of Juridical Science degree from Harvard Law School. Zero^talk 04:11, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

Still he is no expert in land usage in Israel and it still an opinion--Shrike (talk) 06:49, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

His full background clearly makes him expert in the subject and we treat assertions by experts as facts (and who says it's only his opinion anyway?). One only needs to read the government gazette to know about land expropriations, and the Israeli legal system as applied to the Arab minority is one of his specialties. Almost every Arab locality in Israel that wasn't completely depopulated lost most of its land after 1948, so there is nothing exceptional about it either. A similar statement (with source of course) should appear in almost every such article. Zero^talk 09:01, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

No it doesn't , and no we don't. Inf-in MD (talk) 11:09, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

This waffling objectionism is immaterial, and you cannot in the lead remove him as un reliable, and then leave the ref intact in the Crime Section where, down the page, he is suddenly accepted as reliable. That is blatant abuse by editorial inconsistency. Sultany is a native of Tira, and knows its history intimately. He noted in his article a fact familiar to him. It was removed as Shrike said we need better source. I have now provided an excellent source by Sabri Jiryis where every datum given is sourced to predominantly Israeli Hebrew official government documents. And Jiryis's details on Tira confirm Sultany's remark with meticulous statistical detail. Shrike's request has been satisfied. The objection therefore is sheer WP:IDONTLIKETHAT. Nishidani (talk) 12:02, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

We most certainly can and will remove an opinion stated as fact from the lead. In the crime section, it is attributed as an opinion, and might be ok there, but it is not appropriate to state that opinion as fact in the lead, and his opinion is not notable enough to be in the lead. Inf-in MD (talk) 13:24, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

Read again, it is not stated as a fact in the lead. By the way, who's we? You have been insinuating that there are a group of editors who are fellow travelers, and now assert that you are one of a concerted group (we). Really, that is both an example of double standards, and contradicting oneself. In any case, your objections fails because the 'opinion' is attributed, and, mirroring precisely the case at the FLLP article, you cannot object to something as non-RS (subjective) when what it states turns out to be an academically documented truism.Nishidani (talk) 13:53, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

'we' is the Wikipedia editing community. See for example WP:RSN -"While we attempt to offer a second opinion, and the consensus of several editors can generally be relied upon, answers are not official policy." or Wikipedia:Requesting_copyright_permission - "To use copyrighted material on Wikipedia, it is not enough that we have permission to use it on Wikipedia alone. " This opinion is not notable enough for the lead. Inf-in MD (talk) 14:04, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

No that won't wash: too thin. We on page to page of articles does not mean 'the Wikipedia community' of 36 million editors. It means those who are editing the page. You slipped and showed your POV. Stating 'this opinion is not notable enough for the lead' shows a hapless disregard for policy. (a) first you objected, ignoring the text of the article, that an opinion was being quoted in wiki's voice. When I reminded you that you were wrong - it is attributed- you changed tactics (b) now you allude to its putative non-notability. You have to prove that. You think it is notable to write a detailed paragraph on crime in Tira, but think a Tira scholar who we use to document the problem of crime, is not notable. Again utter incoherence.Nishidani (talk) 15:01, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

All of the historic detail on Tira is the work of Huldra, whom you think of apparently as part of a cabal. The details on land were provided by myself. I even per NPOV noted that it had a problem with criminality. What do you do, tracking me here? You write up in a blitz a screed of indictment about Tira and 'Arab' criminality, without context. No work in a library looking up obscure details of Ottoman or Byzantine or Mandatory history, no sweat trying to give a grounded and nuanced overview of the town: just stuff that deplores its Arab criminality. As in the other article, you are driving a POV, which, simply stated, consists in erasing anything you find unacceptable negative, even if impeccably documented, regarding a 'Jewish' Israel, while digging up dirt about the 20% Arab Israelis. This slant stands out like dogs' balls. Nishidani (talk) 15:01, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

I explained to you what I meant by 'we', with examples. You can take it or leave it, it is immaterial. You need agreement to add disputed material to the lead, and you don't have such agreement. You put up a caricature of the crime situation in Tira, a complex issue with many causes and often conflicting explanations and nuanced motivations, reducing it to one opinion of a non-notable activist in an editorial, who blames it all on land confiscations from decades ago,. I improved it, so it now resembles a useful section. Pay attention, and maybe you'll be able to do the same someday. Inf-in MD (talk) 15:08, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

I do not need your agreement. you don't have any special rights to this page. We refers to people editing the page. 5 at the moment:Huldra, myself, Zero, ZScarpia, and you, with 90% of the material provided by the three. So you have to get a majority of these active editors to agree with your apparently singular opinion that everything you don't write is unacceptable for Tira. And it won't help your case if you consistently, as you did at FLLF, distort the facts on record, and the editing process. Sultany is not (a) an activist but a Professor of Public Law (b) writing for the Guardian (c) his remark reflects direct knowledge of his home town (d) he doesn't 'blame': he makes a correlation between crime and inequality . That is a standard sociological rule, not peculiar to Sultany (e) and what he says reflects directly the documentation now provided from Sabri Jiryis, based on Israel's official records. With just a few hundred edits under your belt telling someone with 85,000 to 'pay attention' is comical. Nishidani (talk) 15:28, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

You don't need my agreement, specifically, but you need a consensus of editors on this article, which you do not have. Three people have already objected to this in the lead, stop disruptively edit warring back in. Inf-in MD (talk) 16:11, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

• I removed this POV addition. An oped by some activist does not belong. Free1Soul (talk) 15:48, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

No. There is no evidence the author is an activist. And secondly per WP:MOS, given that we have a large section on crime, the lead must have a mention of it. Two examples of lack of attention. You just took an arbitrary assertion by another editor as true. You also removed an authority on Israeli Palestinian villages, Sabri Jiryis, a scholar of distinction, in the same edit. Therefore both your edit summary and your description here of what you did are falsifications. Walking into articles one has never edited and making the same reverts in favour of an editor in a minority, with no explanation other than repeating what that editor asserted, is playing a numbers game and abusive of wiki process.Nishidani (talk) 16:04, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

And Free1Soul still owes the page an explanation as to why a standard historical source on the topic of land dispossession and the system governing Palestinians in Israel (Sabri Jiryis) is a 'POV addition' and 'an op-ed by an activist' So? Nishidani (talk) 17:20, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

The lead can mention that there's a crime issue, sourced to a reliable source, not an OpEd. It can't have the fringe opinion of an activist from an Op-ed speculating that the reason for the crime rate is land confiscations from decades ago.Inf-in MD (talk) 16:11, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

The lead can mention . . It can't have . . .

Look, some advice. If you are indeed a new editor, you have a handful of edits, mainly talk page argufying. Your language is assertive about what other editors, with 150,000 edits collectively, may or may not do, when, as elsewhere, it turns out you are just opinionizing without a grasp of policy or practice, and it is obvious you don't know much about how wiki works. No serious editor here will be conned by drive-by editors repeating your remarks that Nimer Sultany is an 'activist with a fringe opinion' about his own town, when any 2 second check will tell them that Sultany is Reader in Public Law at SOAS and his latest book, an intricate study of constitutional law, was awarded the International Society of Public Law best book of the year in 2018, where it was greeted by a legal advisor to the House of Lords (and Oxford/University College of London Professor of Law) as "incontestably in the front rank of constitutional scholarship." The author is self-evidently not fringe and not dismissible as an 'activist' (Yeah I know, that's a code word for someone interested in Palestinian realities) So stop the ridiculous nescient know-all posturing and do some homework, instead of endlessly splitting fallen hairs on talk pages. It is absurd even that one should have to respond to such patent repetitive sloganeering written in lieu of any attentive argumenr or examination of sources.Nishidani (talk) 17:09, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

stop lecturing, and start following proper procedures. 3 editors have objected to this, and gave their reasons, namely, that "activist" or not, the opinion that the crime wave in 2020 in Tira is a result of land confiscation in the 1950s is a fringe position, voiced in an OpEd, while reliable sources attribute it primarily to organized crime. Your options are to accept that you're not always going to get your way, or wait for more input. Inf-in MD (talk) 17:46, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

You need lecturing because you consistently ignore procedure and precedent. Shrike removed that passage because Sultany is not a land expert on Israel (he doesn't need to be, he came from the village in question and noted a truism) (b) To satisfy his objection, I provided a highly detailed text citing Israeli sources on Israel's expropriation of Tira lands. Hence Shrike's objection is satisfied. (b) Free1Soul popped in reverted, and said the author was an activist. Wrong on both counts. The author is not an activist but an internationally known legal scholar and, secondly, the objection fails because Free1soul actually removed the source, Sabri Jiryis, who has competence, and whose book reference was embedded in the lead. I asked for an explanation of this deletion of RS, no reply. So you are on your own. No policy.-adequate reasons have been given, an edit summary falsified what the driveby editor did, and you repeat the same claim that a source which mentions the thinning of Tira's lands from 26,000 dunams (for 3,200 people) to 8,500 dunams to cater to 22,000 people has nothing to do with the difficulties people there experience, unlike the testimony of a native of Tira. I know replying is pointless: you talk past the embarrassing details which contradict your claims. But, I at least honour policy, which says one should try to gain a consensus based on reasoned analysis of source material, something you haven't done.Nishidani (talk) 20:02, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

I don't need lecturing, and neither does anyone else on this collaborative, volunteer project. Stop lecturing, and start following proper procedures. Being a native of a place doesn't make you an expert on it, and personal anecdotes are just that, anecdotes. This is a fringe position, contradicted by reliable sources, and does not belong in the lead. Inf-in MD (talk) 20:30, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

There is nothing fringe about an Arab village losing most of its land. And you shouldn't make claims like "contradicted by reliable sources" unless you can present them. Zero^talk 02:35, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

The fringe position is that this land loss is the cause of the current crime wave. I've written this several times already, I am sorry you are having such a difficult time comprehending that.Inf-in MD (talk) 10:57, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

Are there any sources that dispute that position? Because if not it is not fringe. nableezy - 17:40, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

Yes, they were quoted in the article. The vast majority of reliable source place the blame on organized crime, with additional factors like domestic violence, family feuds and gang activity. Inf-in MD (talk)

No, they give other reasons. Do any dispute this as a cause? nableezy - 18:12, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

They give those as the primary cause . Inf-in MD (talk) 18:29, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

Here is an academic source verifying that a lot of land was expropriated from Tira. Zero^talk 02:44, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

Present absentees

I have multiple sources that all the Palestinian residents of the The Triangle, which includes Tira, were classed as present absentees on the grounds that on the critical date they were under Jordanian rule. This meant that their land was classed as absentee property even though they never left their homes. I'm not sure I have the perfect source yet. If this checks out it obviously belongs in the article. Zero^talk 05:19, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

I have it, so no need to check that out.

‘Many of those who were defined as absentee and whose property had been taken over by the Custodian were actually present in Israel at the time. These are the people who became known as the “present absentees.” . .Even the residents of the villages of the Triangle who never left their homes were classified as absentees. In this case, Transjordan held the villages at the end of fighting, but not their farmland to the west, which was under Israeli control. The villages were transferred to Israel by the Rhodes Armistice Agreement of 1949, and the villagers were ostensibly reunited with their lands. Although they had not left their homes, they had been in an area controlled by the Transjordanian Legion and separated from their land, and that was now taken as absentee property.’ David A. Wesley, State Practices and Zionist Images: Shaping Economic Development in Arab Towns in Israel, Berghahn Books 2013 ISBN 978-0-857-45907-7 p.110

I'll get round to putting that in when I get time to expand the article, repeated driveby deletionists permitting of course:)Nishidani (talk) 11:31, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

There is more with references to High Court decisions in Abu Hussein & McKay, "Access Denied", p71.

...when the residents of the Little Triangle became Israeli citizens after the cease-fire agreement with Jordan in April 1949, attempted to reclaim their farmland from the Custodian, citing the clause in the Armistice Agreement that obliged Israel to protect the property rights of the residents of the Triangle, they failed to have the designation of their farmland as absentee property reversed. The High Court rejected several appeals, refusing to uphold the clause on the grounds that as an international agreement it was not justiciable in the Israeli courts.

The main court case was Custodian of Absentee Property v. Samarah et al. (HC 25/55). Ruth Lapidoth, International Law within the Israel Legal System, 24 Isr. L. REV. 451 (1990) kindly quotes the justices explaining that taking land away from Arabs was more important than abiding by international agreements. (They didn't put it that way, but everyone knew what the intention was.) This matter belongs in other articles too. Zero^talk 13:16, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for mentioning her fine article. I read it years ago. The details if we want to use it are of course:

'Since treaties which have not been transformed into municipal law have no effect in the Israel legal system, a fortiori these treaties are not applied if they contradict Israeli law.’pp.458ff.’Ruth Lapidoth, 'International Law within the Israel Legal System,' Israel Law Review Volume 24 (1990) pp.451-484 pp.458f.

She did make a comparison of the Israeli legal shenanigans with English Common Law (where however ethnicity doesn't shape legal outcomes as it does in the Israel analogy) while noting that in the U.S. and France international treaties have an immediate effect on municipal law (and I think now also all countries of the EEC). Perhaps that explains the US wariness about underwriting so many international treaties.Nishidani (talk) 17:16, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

Maps

The earliest appearances I can find on maps are "Tiret" on an 1828 map by A. Arrowsmith, and "et-Tireh" on an 1843 map by W. Hughes. I can't find any text to support the first of these. The second probably comes from a mention by Robinson. Zero^talk 14:23, 5 September 2021 (UTC)